Jon M. Chu has photographic evidence. Before he directed “Wicked,” the hit adaptation of the Broadway musical about a pair of witchy BFFs, Chu was an extra on “The Secret World of Alex Mack.” And that Nickelodeon series, part of the TV diet for anyone growing up in the 1990s, marked the directorial debut of Shawn Levy, who would go on to make “Stranger Things,” “Free Guy” and last summer’s “Deadpool & Wolverine.” The two are meeting in New York to discuss their journeys to the top of Hollywood’s A-list, as well as their talent for making unabashedly commercial movies, featuring heroes and heroines with extraordinary abilities, that are also deeply personal. But before they get to that, Chu shares a screen grab of his fleeting moment being directed by Levy.
Levy is stunned, then reflective about those early days. “I remember thinking, ‘It’s happening,’” he says. “‘All my dreams are coming true.’ Then you realize there’s no straight lines in these careers. It’s ebbs and flows that take you to surprising places.”
The two directors are enjoying professional peaks, having made the highest-grossing films of their careers. Yet they’re more interested in discussing the detours and hurdles they’ve faced, and their love for making movies that are empathetic and hopeful at a time when those things are in short supply.
Shawn Levy: Why did you become a director?
Jon M. Chu: I grew up loving movies. I would look at behind-the-scenes footage of “Hook” and see Spielberg there and the kids jumping in the water. I’m like, “I want to play all day like that.”
Levy: Wasn’t Spielberg an early supporter of yours?
Chu: My student film somehow got to Spielberg. We set up a script with DreamWorks. My first pitch was with Steven. It was like “Moulin Rouge!” We brought in a chest with wigs and hats and acted out the whole thing. And they bought it. But I didn’t make my first movie until five years later. I freaked out when I couldn’t get a movie made. For years, I asked, “Do I even deserve to be here?”
Levy: I just saw “Wicked” and loved it. That theme that you articulated of “Do I deserve to be here?” is what Elphaba is struggling with too.
Chu: That character spoke to me. We all want to be Elphaba. You want to see her burst into her power. When you started, how insecure were you?
Levy: I finished shooting my last scene after a decade of “Stranger Things.” I flew back last night, thinking about that show. With “Stranger Things,” it’s about a group of people who question their value, who find each other, and who find superpowers in connection. I grew up in a divorced household with an alcoholic mom, and it was like, “I want to build the life I wish I was living.” I see now a lot of the work I’ve done is aspirational and about attaining this dream.
Chu: Definitely. “Wizard of Oz” means so much to my parents, who were immigrants. There’s the Yellow Brick Road — this was the American dream. I was going to USC at the time I saw “Wicked.” I flew back to San Francisco and went with them. Watching it blew my mind.
I love that we’re talking about our journeys, because I don’t talk to people about the expectations that are placed on you as a director. Part of my self-consciousness was I wanted to be a director, not an Asian director. And I love to make joyful movies that take you to another place and that have love. At film school it was like you’re not artsy if you’re not talking about blood and guts, murder and drugs. Your movies, Spielberg’s movies, were this light in the horizon saying, “You can put this into the universe.”
Levy: “Wicked” and “Deadpool & Wolverine” are both of our biggest movies to date as far as complexity, scale, expectation, budget. How did you navigate the pressure?
Chu: Part of that was protecting the things that I already loved about “Wicked.” I knew if I found those two women … First of all, if you didn’t find them, you don’t make the movie.
Levy: Did you audition unknowns as well as famous people like Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande?
Chu: We did. I thought that’s the way we were going to go first. I was like, “We don’t need name people,” but the reality is those songs are very hard. It takes a professional. For “Deadpool & Wolverine,” was the pressure enormous?
Levy: People assumed the pressure would be “Oh, it’s my first Marvel movie, and the MCU needs a big hit.” It had been years since “Endgame,” and when we were prepping, “Quantumania” came out. I expected Marvel was going to be intense. It wasn’t. We worked for months to come up with “Deadpool 3.” We did not crack it. Every idea felt either too big and bombastic for “Deadpool” or too small for Marvel. We failed. We scheduled a Zoom to tell Kevin Feige, “Let’s come back to this in a year or two.” On that day, Hugh [Jackman] called and said, “I had an epiphany. I want to be with Deadpool.” He had no idea the movie was going to evaporate. From the minute Hugh called, I knew what it would be. It’s a friendship-redemption-road trip movie like “Midnight Run” or “48 Hrs.”
Chu: What I loved about the movie is it’s saying the most current things.
Levy: We’re shooting a scene, and Ryan [Reynolds] starts: “Can we be done with the multiverse thing? It’s not great.” Then he goes, “It’s just been miss after miss.” I’m at the monitor going, “Oh, shit. I can’t believe it.” But Marvel backed us.
Can I give you a compliment? I have not seen a musical adaptation employ the tools of cinema in a way that felt this additive. Your visual humor was fucking impressive.
Chu: When I did “Crazy Rich Asians,” I got to take all those lessons of comedy and camerawork and put it in this thing that’s personal to me. When that works out, it changes the way I feel about myself and what I have to say.
Levy: With “Wicked” and “Crazy Rich Asians” you took ownership of making movies that inspire delight. You want to take people out of the real world into this dark theater. You want to give them a feeling. A great movie becomes, if you’re lucky, a life memory.
Chu: When it’s released theatrically is it different?
Levy: Yeah. Look, [the Netflix film] “The Adam Project” is one of the best filmmaking experiences I’ve ever had. It’s one of the best movies I’ve made. I’ll keep working in streaming, but theatrical penetrates culture differently. It sticks with people because they’ve made that choice to leave home and get babysitters. They’re there with an intention to connect with that story.
Chu: I felt the same making “Wicked.” This is our opportunity to show why cinema should exist. It was like, “This is Oz.” One of the most iconic cinematic palettes of color, shape, form, and we get to go dance in it.
Levy: I’ve not seen a person of color play Elphaba. I don’t know if that choice was controversial. I’m sure some people embraced it and others were shitty. But it changed the dimensions. The casting choice brought out themes that are innate in the show, but never overtly so.
Chu: That’s Cynthia. When she came in and she sang words I’ve heard a million times — “Something has changed within me, something’s not the same” — all the context changed.
Levy: Were the vocals recorded live on set?
Chu: It’s 99% recorded on set. We had a live pianist every day. The power of singing live was they didn’t have to be on tempo. They could take all the breath in the world, the wind could kick up, they could feel it and then they could go into the next phrase.
Talking about tone, how did you decide when Wolverine or Logan would hear the joke that Deadpool was saying at any point? It’s like the divorce line [referencing Jackman’s recent divorce]. He didn’t hear it. You didn’t see the reaction. It just existed.
Levy: The first day Hugh shot, he spoke to the camera. Ryan was like, “Oh, no, buddy. Only Deadpool breaks the fourth wall.” The rule tends to be if Deadpool is addressing the camera, the other characters don’t notice. There’s a joke where we go, this is Logan. He’s normally shirtless, but he let himself go after the divorce. Deadpool is an equal-opportunity offender, but we cleared that with Hugh before we laid it out in front of the crew and the world.
Chu: I love at the end of “Deadpool” when Logan is asked: “Where are you going to go?” He’s like, “I don’t know, but I’ll figure it out.” That’s me when I make a movie.
Levy: We both are lucky that we get to tell stories that both entertain and provide hope.